Sinnfina

[danomar]

Or maybe an Orfsinn-a: http://tinyurl.com/3jnvwgz

It has many authentic elements. I held my breath in hope until I saw the movement photo.

Perhaps our Israeli friend has a competitor, but I think it is the same person with a different user name.

[X vintage]

From what i can see though, there is no other Orfina element/part in the watch apart from the rotor...

IMHO the guy had to change the rotor part and he just used an Orfina one.

The interesting thing is the use of a cal. 5100 without the 12 o'clock subdial which is rather uncommon, but not unheard of for a 140/1 of the era.

X

[Pascal S]

As far as I know, Sinn never sold a model 140/142 with a combination of a dial without the 24 hour indicator and a calibre 5100 inside. Such dials were only found on the model 140B/141 powered by the calibre 5012 and which replaced the more common model 140 powered by a calibre 1341. This transition model was later replaced by the famous model 142, which now turns out to be the third automatic chronograph to have flown in space (the others were Colonel Pogue's Seiko and a Speedmaster 125 flown by the Russians).

Coming back to this particular watch, I can see many issues with it. The hands are the modern fully lumed Sinn version that you wouldn't find with this sort of dial. To me, this watch is just another puzzling put-together abomination from Israel. We've seen quite a lot of them lately...

[X vintage]

You are right about the hands Pascal...i did not notice.

As far as the dial/movement combination is concerned i guess that your info is better than mine...I did think though that some Sinn 140/141s of the era had indeed used cal. 5100s without the 12 o'clock subdial (when they ran out of cal. 5012s i guess).

X

[DaveS]

No more to add from me, other than the fact that there is a seller on E-Bay at the moment offering Orfina rotors, which may seem a likely source, and the fact that the case seems to have lost all crispness on the facets, they look thoroughly rounded.

A definite stear-clear...

D

[danomar]

Pascal knows Lemanias better than I, but I have seen some supposedly authentic Sinn 140/141 models with Lemania 5100 movements inside.

This is a friend's Sinn that I held in my very own hands:





I am still a little suspicious of the seller, but it was supposedly in the USA for many years prior and the seller did not seem to know enough about watches to have messed with it. The bright red 6 o'clock register hand suggests a replacement—the seller indicated it had fallen off and must have been replaced. The day and date wheels suggest that it is, of course, a 5100 or 5012 inside. The rotor is unsigned.

I seem to remember reading from more than one source that either the 140 or 141 contained the 5100 but with only two subdials.

I cannot pretend to be an expert, but I think that there were indeed two-subdial 5100's in Sinn's 14x range after Sinn stopped using the 5012.

It all adds up to the fun of being Lemaniacial. One never knows what new permutation might show up next.

[Pascal S]

This is the first time ever I see any evidence of such a case housing both a Lemania 5100 movement and a dial with no 24 hour register. Sinn did use this combination of calibre and dial in the first version of its model 156, but all the models 140B/141 that looked like this appeared to be powered by a calibre 5012.

But if we are to assume that the watch pictured above is fully original apart from its chrono hour register hand, we can confidently say that it is very rare. The problem is that I am hard to convince when a subdial gets a replacement hand for a dubious reason: had the original hand "fallen off", it would have remained in the case and would therefore have been easy enough to place back. Why source a new hand in a different colour then? This kind of discrepancy usually raises a red flag as far as I'm concerned...

[flugzeit]

There was a Sinn model produced which looked very similar to this one. It was called the 140 B. As far as I am aware this model only ever housed the Lemania 1341. The example we are looking at in this thread certainly has a new and modern hand set, as the original Sinn hand sets for these (and other models) had the white bordered lume filled hands, and the dial is actually wrong if it is supposed to be a 140 B (it should have thin lume batons and small numbers).

If I was to take a guess, I would say we are looking at:
- possibly a genuine older case (from the model 140)
- a re-dial, or some sort of (non production) Sinn replacement dial
- new and/or various hands
- new chapter ring insert (but maybe not)
- Lemania 5100 movement not contemporary to the model

That's just my casual observation and in the case of the individual or individuals offering these pieces you wouldn't want to bet anything on it. Shake and mix... hey presto!

Someone stump up the bargain price of US$2,800 and then we can all find out more about it... LOL!

-flugzeit

[DaveS]

very nicely put Coady, and very credible.
I spotted another one today on Ebay.de, claiming a 5100, but obscuring the named medallion on the rotor which would tell us for sure.

Here

http://cgi.ebay.de/Sinn-142-ST-Chron...item415a70c6dc

Piccy



Some glaring anomalies with this one too, but generally a more evenly aged looking example.

What is interesting about this example is that it does have what looks like distinctly aged solid lume H and M hands - contempraneous with the watch??

The other hands having no colour would perhaps indicate that they are not.

I also note the total absence of minute numeration..........

This page also caught my eye

http://www.sinn-uhren.info/54.html

Note the shot near the bottom of the page showing an example atop the specification sheet.

Beat rate at 21,600 is clearly visible on the sheet, just above where it says Steine 17 ......

Dave

[danomar]

Originally Posted by Pascal S

Why source a new hand in a different colour then? This kind of discrepancy usually raises a red flag as far as I'm concerned...

Pascal, I agree it seems suspicious. That is why I stayed away from it but my friend took advantage of the euro-dollar exchange rate and bought it for a very nice price. I can attest that the case, crown, and pushers all evidenced equal aging appropriate to the watch. Except for that bright red hand at 6 o'clock, the rest of the watch seems authentic.

Remember that Sinn used the two-register 5100 in another model:





My Sinn 143 is a later model, however, probably form the early 1990's. My friend's questionable 140 has an unsigned movement and the serial number emblem which seem appropriate for the model's age.

I know the sinn-uhren.info site well. The person running it is very knowledgeable about Sinn, but even he has some unexplainable discrepancies. For example, the 140B is listed as having the 1341, yet several photos show 140 models with day wheels. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the 1341 only came with a date window, no day of the week.

My hazy memory recalls that very sinn-uhren page at the center of an online discussion somewhere. The conclusion was that Sinn actually used the 5100 without 24-hour register, but as Pascal points out, it is always healthy to be skeptical.

Still it is nice to see folks clearly spotting the incorrect elements on this otherwise nice watches. Too bad the Israeli (and sometimes other parts of the world) crowd is ruining things for everyone else.